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9:31 am
July 9, 2009
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naturalbornfighter1
| | Glasgow, Scotland | |
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What do you find the best way to punch is? Starting off in a Tae Kwon-Do background I was taught to strike with the first two knuckles, When I switched to Muay Thai and MMA I have always used this method succesfully but looking at some punching instrutionals I found that they say its better to use the last three knuckles due to wrist allignment and surface area. I find It hard to adjust to using the last 3 knuckles.
Whats your preference?
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9:49 am
July 9, 2009
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zaxonortesus
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I tend to avoid my last knuckle, as it is easy to break the hand right there. I was taught the first two thing as well and use it very well, though as of late, I find myself using my middle two knuckles, especially in MMA gloves. I have never had any issues with folding my wrists with either way.
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10:17 am
July 9, 2009
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Dr Sick
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For me it depends on the punch and on the situation. Basic standing boxing, I use the top two for jabs and crosses across the board. For some strange reason, I can't say really, I use the top two for body hooks and the bottom 3 for head hooks.
On the mat and in super close quarters I use the bottom three for the Wing Chun type straight punch/one inch punch. No lie. I know it sounds kind of goofy but they work for me. We call them hacksaw punches at our gym because of the way we use them but really, that's just repackaging and re-marketing of an old Wing Chun type punch.
And of course, I use the bottom of my fist for bottom fists and the back of my fists for back fists (top two knuckles)
Great thread!
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10:25 am
July 9, 2009
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naturalbornfighter1
| | Glasgow, Scotland | |
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I always found the little knuckle vulnerable feeling too. Is it due to the hand wrapping and padding in pro boxing gloves that makes it more acceptable to strike with that area? Also does anyone think that it affects KO percentage which part of the fist that you strike with. If anyone knows of any studies done on this issue I'd love to hear about it. I realise the area being struck is what causes the KO but If you hit the same point with the different area what different effect would it have?
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10:32 am
July 9, 2009
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CrockettM
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As a child I came from a Self-Defense oriented (rather then competition-oriented) Karate instructor who taught us to strike with the first two knuckles, so the majority of the time I tend to punch with those. In my opinion, my punches with the last three knuckles feel weaker then those with my first two, but that may just be me. =P
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10:41 am
July 9, 2009
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zaxonortesus
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Brian, as I am thinking about it, when I am in more of a cross distance than a real inside punch/hook distance, I will throw the lead head hook with my bottom knuckles as well, almost like throwing it out as a jab, then turning it over to get around the head at the last second… weird.
And Robert, as far as KO %'s, I would think that it depends on a lot more than that. If you have your hand in a fist out in front of you and tilt it in a little bit, it will line up the last 3 knuckles with the wrist, while if you tilt your wrist out a bit (as I do when I throw my crosses), it lines up the first 2 knuckles with the wrist, but either way, having that alignment is what is going to get the power from the ground, through your body and into your fist as best as possible.
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11:03 am
July 9, 2009
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naturalbornfighter1
| | Glasgow, Scotland | |
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Yeah Zax, I was just trying to simplify something very complex that really cant be simplified. hee hee. my bad!
Another issue, I've never KO'd anyone but years ago I remember reading an article stating that if you punch at either an upward or downward angle to the jawline It increases your chance of scoring a KO. Does ayone know if there's any truth behind this?
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11:09 am
July 9, 2009
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CrockettM
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http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Science-of-a-Knock-Out-Punch
I'm not sure if this answers your question, but it's rather interesting nonetheless.
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11:12 am
July 9, 2009
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zaxonortesus
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lol, its cool!
And I have never KO'ed anyone with a punch, just liver kick KO's. My guess would be that it would depend on the angle that their head is at, but I know with my kicks, I try to come in perpendicular to my target as much as possible, I would assume it is the same for hands (and that is what I try to do!)
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3:31 pm
July 9, 2009
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Dr Sick
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I don't know man. I think that it can be simplified if you want it to be. I've told some of my online friends about another "Anatomy Of" series we shot with Dr. Mark Cacciamanni where he discussed with us the anatomy of the K.O. We also shot a little application oriented material with it but we never released it because of the link above. Our simple little series pales in comparison to that bad @$$ computer graphic stuff.
So we tucked it away. Maybe we'll release it as a DamageControlMMA.com exclusive.
Either way, what Cacciamanni told us was that basically the K.O. boils down to one of two things. The back of the brain coming in contact with the back of your skull. Or over twisting of your spinal chord at the brain stem/cerebellum.
It doesn't matter how you make that happen. If you get either of the two to happen, your buddy's lights start to go dim.
We use a technique we call "Making Martini". It can be done from anywhere but we like to use it against Half Guard Players. You put your forearm across their face and cup the back of their head with your hand. Then you shake their head like a cocktail shaker and watch them go dumb.
:)
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3:27 am
July 10, 2009
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naturalbornfighter1
| | Glasgow, Scotland | |
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wow, I've never heard of the twisting the spinal chord at the brain stem before. Next time one of my buddies catch me in half guard I know what im going to do hee hee!
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9:34 am
July 10, 2009
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Dr Sick
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I know I sound like a mommy here but use caution. Twist too far and you're going to paralyze or kill someone. The twisting motion described is the type that happens when someone is punched on the chin.
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9:39 am
July 10, 2009
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Dr Sick
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One of my students calls it the Shaking Baby Syndrome Technique. I think it's a good description of the motion and rhythm. The only difference is slightly turning their head to the side with your forearm across their face. However, we don't do this so much to discombobulate our opponent as to predict which way he has to move. He has to to toward the direction he is looking.
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5:01 am
July 12, 2009
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naturalbornfighter1
| | Glasgow, Scotland | |
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I know I sound like a mommy here but use caution. Twist too far and you're going to paralyze or kill someone. The twisting motion described is the type that happens when someone is punched on the chin.
[/quote]
dont worry Dr Sick. I was just kidding. I dont think I'd have the guts to try it without at least a medical team standing by. :)
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9:41 pm
July 13, 2009
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streetdawg
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When I competed (back with the dinosaurs) I had gauze and tape on my hands then a glove over that. So I don’t know what knuckles I used, all of them I think.
For self-defense I use my palms because when I was a young knuckle head I broke my hands twice. Having had the opportunity to try my palms in a street fight, I can say that I was able to hit just as hard and effective as with a fist but without breaking my hands.
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7:03 am
July 14, 2009
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zaxonortesus
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I like that… making martini's.
Brian, under which category would a solid 'button shot' fall into then? I hate to use this as an example, but it is pretty well known and demonstrates it well. When Seth Petruzelli KOed Kimbo, it was a very short jab that was right on 'the button'. Kimbo's head/neck didn't seem to twist at all, nor did it seem to be a strong enough hit to rattle his brain around in his head. I always thought that a button shot was more about hitting certain nerves, which send a whole bunch of mixed signals to the brain, basically causing it to spaz out and shut off. Is this wrong, or is it a different style of KO?
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8:09 am
July 14, 2009
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Dr Sick
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I don't know to be honest with you. All the research that I've been able to do on this subject point to one cause of KO. Unless you also consider strangles (Triangle Choke, RNC, etc.) as a KO as well. For now I will put the strangles into another category however I do believe them to be somewhat related.
All the research I've found seems to say that KO's are caused by the brain coming into contact with the skull. I don't remember the Kimbo KO (maybe someone can post the link here) but another factor I've heard about was this. The brain is surrounded by spinal fluid which helps to cushion and absorb some shock when the head is struck. However, when people cut weight, all fluids in the body are reduced. This includes the spinal fluid and thus decreases the level of shock the brain can handle and increases the chances of a KO.
According to Dr. Cacciamanni the reduced spinal fluid may also contribute to a drop in blood pressure which is thought to make us more susceptible to a CO (Choke Out or Strangulation). He said that this is evident when we stand up too quickly and are dehydrated, we get light headed and sometimes faint.
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9:24 pm
July 14, 2009
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zaxonortesus
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In that particular instance, Kimbo was fighting at HW, at his natural weight, so no cut there, but I hadn't thought about dehydrating pulling fluid from your head as well. I can't remember where I heard it… A K-1 match I want to say, but anyway, they were talking about how a stiff shin across the carotid artery causes a KO by quickly compressing/decompressing the blood in the brain, basically like karate chopping a ketchup packet on a table, it will bulge, then return to normal, but the brain cant handle it and tada, lights out. I have always thought this to be akin to a choke as well, mess with the blood flowing to the brain and it shuts down… I might start calling High kicks my favorite choke.
PS, here is a link to that fight, and after watching it, the short jab more or less rocked him, not really a KO, it was the inexperience and lack of conditioning that got him KOed.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj_MWj7sckc[/url]
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12:01 pm
August 16, 2009
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Dr Sick
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Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply to this. I just didn't check this thread because the little graphic that usually tells me that there are new posts in the thread didn't alert me that there was anything new here.
At any rate I took a look and from the example you put up I didn't see any significant torsion of the neck. But from the angle here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ZxpbtcC8A
You can clearly see Kimbo's head getting turned and his neck getting twisted at 6:57 in. You've also got to consider that his whole body weight was moving in one direction just prior to having his head turned in a completely opposite direction.
I'm no expert. That's just my $.02.
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2:48 am
August 18, 2009
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naturalbornfighter1
| | Glasgow, Scotland | |
| Post Leader | posts 633 |
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I’m no expert. That’s just my $.02.
You're being a little modest brian, Why do ou think we're askig you so many questions? :)
I'vebeen reading Anderson Silva's book on striking for MMA. Throughout the book he keeps saying – use the first two knuckles of the index and middle finger.
Thats good enough for me haha!
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