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New self defense 101 video thoughts
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May 8, 2012
2:26 pm
rob davis
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Interesting stuff in fact, the instructor in the video clip is who got me interested using foot sweeps integrated with boxing. Just my thoughts on the information. If it is a real self defense scenario I would never want to engage in a kickboxing match with a bad guy. I don’t like the idea of punching someone on the face or head with a closed fist. In law enforcement I have arrested alot of big tough guys who knocked someone out. They generally needed to be taken to medical before they were jailed.

 

If it’s self defense I want to get the hell out of harms way and run if possible. Of course if it’s like the sniper scene from Saving Private Ryan, I’m sticking my thumbs in the guys eyes and chewing on his nose. What I do agree with from the video is you should train how you will fight. I don’t think there is a special set of “self defense” moves that are separate from your regular techniques.  A low round kick in sparring is the same low round kick I would throw at a bad guy. In fact when I was in law enforcement I used actual wrestling techniques more than the techniques from the academy. I used arm drags  against a lot of unruly drunks.

In reference to the wrestlers guillotine video, Allan Belcher attempted it against Palleheres (sp) during the last UFC event. 

Just my 0.02 cents.

May 9, 2012
4:04 am
paul thomas
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Hey rob ,

ya beat me to it lol ! , self defence always opens up a whole can of worms ! as you so rightly say a physical response is always the wrong choice if you have any other option , i always teach my guys that hitting the guy is the last resort ,you should be looking to escape , use verbal dissuasion ,  even if it means swallowing your pride or even just posturing .However as your law enforcement experience and my time spent as a night club doorman taught me there are situations when people wont give you that chance ,there are people for whom a fight at the end of there evening is like a mint after dinner, they dont care who you are or what dan grade you have they want to fight you  and those people just dont understand anything other than a smack in the mouth .This of course is in the case of an unprovoked attack when some guy just walks up to you and says ” hey what the f*ck are you looking at ? ” these situations explode into violence from almost nothing , there is some dialouge then ” bang ” it kicks off , if you do not control these first few seconds then you will loose and im afraid in this case when i know i have no other option and this guy is going to attack me then i would rather ” be the hammer not the anvil ” you either hit or you get hit ,and at 2 feet away  when you dont know what is coming and your scared to death i wont trust blocking and countering or allowing him to grab me then lock or throw etc i will hit him first and as hard as i can then escape .I understand this is will not go down well with some people but i know from experience it works .I also know that in the case of law enforcement or with someone who is bit drunk and not a great threat  then of course restraint and minimal force are the order of the day , i have done the uk home office control & restraint course and get really pi**ed off when i hear some jerk saying how” it took four police officers to control him” leaving out of course the part that they did this without hurting him and risking prosecution themself . I would also like to say that if you are  interested in real world self defence then do what i did and check out Geoff Thompson ,i learned more about myself and self defence in an hour with him than in many years of martial arts .  

and finally remember what James Coburn said ” avoid arseholes and big egos and avoid the places that arseholes and big egos hang out ” Great advice !

cheers paul. 

   

May 9, 2012
10:15 am
Dr Sick

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rob davis said

Interesting stuff in fact, the instructor in the video clip is who got me interested using foot sweeps integrated with boxing. Just my thoughts on the information. If it is a real self defense scenario I would never want to engage in a kickboxing match with a bad guy. I don’t like the idea of punching someone on the face or head with a closed fist. In law enforcement I have arrested alot of big tough guys who knocked someone out. They generally needed to be taken to medical before they were jailed.

 

If it’s self defense I want to get the hell out of harms way and run if possible. Of course if it’s like the sniper scene from Saving Private Ryan, I’m sticking my thumbs in the guys eyes and chewing on his nose. What I do agree with from the video is you should train how you will fight. I don’t think there is a special set of “self defense” moves that are separate from your regular techniques.  A low round kick in sparring is the same low round kick I would throw at a bad guy. In fact when I was in law enforcement I used actual wrestling techniques more than the techniques from the academy. I used arm drags  against a lot of unruly drunks.

In reference to the wrestlers guillotine video, Allan Belcher attempted it against Palleheres (sp) during the last UFC event. 

Just my 0.02 cents.

 

You should know that I was thinking about you Rob when we were introduced to Guru Sullivan.  It was a surprise to us all as he was not headlined on the list of Camp Instructors.  It isn’t uncommon though for Sensei Paulson to bring in someone out of the blue.  But when we met him I asked if we could shoot a Damage Control Clip with him.  Unless I know someone really well I don’t like to tell them what to show so I let them take the lead and go from there.  With any luck I’ll get more chances to work with him and as I build a repoire I’ll try to sneak in a few questions regarding the foot sweep.

 

I did want you to know that you were a part of the decision to ask Guru to help us with a clip though.

May 9, 2012
3:20 pm
rob davis
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Hey that’s awesome. Thanks for keeping me in mind. I hope my critique of the self defense aspect wasn’t insulting and I didn’t mean it to be that way.

May 9, 2012
3:54 pm
paul thomas
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Maybe i too should add that my post is in no way ment to be derogatory toward anyone or there art and is purely my view based on my training and experience .

all the best paul .

May 9, 2012
5:10 pm
naturalbornfighter1
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paul thomas said

Hey rob ,

ya beat me to it lol ! , self defence always opens up a whole can of worms ! as you so rightly say a physical response is always the wrong choice if you have any other option , i always teach my guys that hitting the guy is the last resort ,you should be looking to escape , use verbal dissuasion ,  even if it means swallowing your pride or even just posturing .However as your law enforcement experience and my time spent as a night club doorman taught me there are situations when people wont give you that chance ,there are people for whom a fight at the end of there evening is like a mint after dinner, they dont care who you are or what dan grade you have they want to fight you  and those people just dont understand anything other than a smack in the mouth .This of course is in the case of an unprovoked attack when some guy just walks up to you and says ” hey what the f*ck are you looking at ? ” these situations explode into violence from almost nothing , there is some dialouge then ” bang ” it kicks off , if you do not control these first few seconds then you will loose and im afraid in this case when i know i have no other option and this guy is going to attack me then i would rather ” be the hammer not the anvil ” you either hit or you get hit ,and at 2 feet away  when you dont know what is coming and your scared to death i wont trust blocking and countering or allowing him to grab me then lock or throw etc i will hit him first and as hard as i can then escape .I understand this is will not go down well with some people but i know from experience it works .I also know that in the case of law enforcement or with someone who is bit drunk and not a great threat  then of course restraint and minimal force are the order of the day , i have done the uk home office control & restraint course and get really pi**ed off when i hear some jerk saying how” it took four police officers to control him” leaving out of course the part that they did this without hurting him and risking prosecution themself . I would also like to say that if you are  interested in real world self defence then do what i did and check out Geoff Thompson ,i learned more about myself and self defence in an hour with him than in many years of martial arts .  

and finally remember what James Coburn said ” avoid arseholes and big egos and avoid the places that arseholes and big egos hang out ” Great advice !

cheers paul. 

   

Hey Paul, as I was reading that there was loads of Geoff Thomson stuff jumping out at me. He’s a revolutionary when it comes to self-protection. I met him at one of his book signings a number of years ago and he was a total gentleman. I love the Fence concept he uses. His books watch my back and Dead or Alive are amazing.

 

As much as I love the Geoff Thomson methods sometimes I feel that self-defence is often narrowly categorised. I don’t know if i’ll properly be able to explain what I mean but I’ll try my best. Most Self-defence experts are usually from one of three seperate backgrounds. They are either from law enforcement, A doorman or Martial artist. Usually a doorman or law enforcement officer with martial arts experience. Or a traditional Martial Artist with more theory than application.

 

In relation to the doormen and law enforcement officers I totally appreciate their experience of being in situations of threat and combat but I sometimes feel that the environment they work in may be vastly different to everyday people.

The doormen usually deal with drunk/drugged aggressive nightclub/ pub goers. 

The police may deal with a far wider spectrum of aggressors but still I have a theory.

 

I’m 5 foot 3, I’m skinny and totally non-intimidating. The way an aggressor may attack me may be totally different from the way they would instigate an attack on a nightclub doorman. They may think differently when attacking a police officer when they know the consequences it may bring. They may know the police have pepper spray/baton or even a gun so they might attack them in a different fashion than they would if they were attacking a little unarmed old lady.

 

Police and doormen are rarely mugged so sometimes a different mindset is needed. Doormen work as a unit with other doormen, Police always have a partner and can call backup.The threat is different, civillians don’t always have those luxuries.

 

Does anyone else have thoughts on this at all? As the others have said I’m not trying to be disrespectful in any way to anyone, Pretty much everything I have learned about Self-Defence has been from Law Enforcers, Bouncers or traditional Martial artists. I just feel there’s a big piece of the puzzle that is missed out.

May 9, 2012
6:48 pm
Dr Sick

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No offense taken from anyone.  I welcome the discussion and variety of perspectives.  What we saw was a mere sampling of what Guru Sullivan has to offer.

 

I think any intelligent person would agree that the best street fight you could ever have is the one the never happens.  But that is more or less the end of that conversation.  It starts to get interesting when we consider that it’s happening and we have to act physically to influence the outcome of the situation.

 

I think naturalbornfighter1 brings up some good points.  Along those lines a police officer will often be a responder to a call, arriving on scene in a “ready” mindset.  I think this in and of itself can completely change the outcome of a physical altercation.

 

At the same time, those same police officers will find themselves in a great deal more, force on force, physical situations than the average citizen.  And there is a wealth of experience and information that we can glean from those who would share it with us.

 

I am enjoying this discussion. 🙂

May 9, 2012
8:54 pm
rob davis
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Glad no offense was taken by my comments. In reference to Geoff Thompson I am familiar with his books and have observed a few videos. In my younger days I worked security for a few college based bars. I was in no way a “doorman” but more of grab a drunk and toss them outside bouncer. This was in my JKD concepts days and I was always waiting for the chance to use “straight blast” and trapping lol!

Naturalbornfighter1, you are exactly right. There are different scenarios or assault methods based on different people. Bouncers and Police will have a different mindset. But based on Desmond Morriss’s Naked Ape, humans follow a primal sense of violence.

The point I am trying to make is if you are going to be assaulted it will be a big haymaker type of punch aimed at your head. If it’s a edged weapon it will more than likely be a low incoming thrust or a diagonal slash. These are not the bs street fighting videos on youtube where the kids are all “gangsta” and talk smack for awhile then start throwing bombs at each other but a real unwarranted attack on a citizen. The problem with martial artists is they practice and train with other similar skilled people. So they are accustomed to those style of attacks. Think about a new guy who comes to class and starts rolling or sparring, it’s kind of scary as they are all over the place. But the majority of martial arts self defense classes I have observed have a the standard this is what you would do against a person trying to choke you and the choke is demonstrated with Frankenstein arms. I have never heard anyone being choked like that. Why not teach how not to be choked in the first place?

I am not intimidating in any fashion. In fact, last summer I was working out in a local park and two young girls said I looked like Viggo Mortenson in the movie Eastern Promises, that’s about the most intimidating I have ever been. I just don’t have all the tattoos. I do think mentally training yourself goes along way. I constantly scan for exits, do ocular pat downs, I didn’t want to say I look for bulges. I also play scenarios in my mind like what would I do if this person in the ticket line suddenly turned around and swings at me etc. Paranoia is just heightened awareness. My biggest fear is getting attacked in a public restroom. It just scares me to death I think because of the germs.

I also would recommend being careful of self defense information you get from law enforcement officers. I’m not bad mouthing them I was one for almost 20 years. Here is the problem. 99% of Defensive Tactics instructors go through a state mandated 5 day course. In reality it’s more like 4 days. The techniques are wonderful when you are dealing with a compliant person. By state law when I was teaching I still had to teach the “goose neck” take down”. There is no way that works when someone is trying to punch you in the nose. In my experience I always reverted back to wrestling and Thai boxing. I would grab an arm, put my head in the pocket, angle away from the their attacking arm and fire a knee or two onto their thigh or glute area and take them down to the floor. Nothing fancy just good basic techniques that can done on different body types, didn’t hurt me doing them and can be learned by anyone.  Didn’t mean to ramble on and on.

May 10, 2012
3:20 am
paul thomas
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Naturalbornfighter 1

Some good points well put !

as you say self defence is a varied subject and again as you point out different depending on your area of experience , i think police / law enforcement officers have the widest range of experience never knowing what the next traffic stop or the next call is going to bring and being able to control these situations within there own rules and guidelines .

as a doorman you do usually have to deal aggression that is fuelled by drink and the often overlooked peer pressure , in other words they fight because they think they should and there mates are all watching and then throw a few girls into the mix and they will take on the world lol ! , also a doorman can be good target for someone looking to make a name for themselves .

The other variable is of course motive , is it mugging / robbery or just displaced aggression ? and i belive both of these will be aimed at someone how is maybe not so aware of what is going on around him or indeed just looks an easy target , the people who initiate these kinds of attack are usually cowards who wont pick on someone they think will fight back or that they outway in numbers .and often with added drink / drugs fuelling them, after all they are not going initate an attack when they are outnumbered or look like getting the crap kicked out them !

 as regards Geoff Thompson i have met and trained with him on several occasions and found his understanding of real fight situations and of our own reactions to them to be really helpfull and his practical techniques/ teaching methods ,especially ” the fence” concept to be great too , and on top of that a really warm and humble man .

And finally i would be the first to say i am no ” tuff guy” or your stereotypical bouncer and my time on the door was short and 99.9% of it spent talking down situations than actually getting phsical , i feel as a martial artist we should set an example and would rather be a friend to someone than be rolling around the pavement with them !  

all the best paul 

May 13, 2012
3:55 pm
naturalbornfighter1
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Great post Rob, I’ve never heard of the ‘Naked ape’ before but I’ll try and check it out, sounds interesting!

That’s another part of the problem too. Skilled practicioner’s training with other skilled fighters. Fighters hone their technique to near as perfect as possible then they train it until it is ingrained in them. Regular folks just don’t do that. In saying that . . . . 

With the booming popularity of MMA and Combat sports does anyone think there’s a chance we could find a change in the techniques used BY attackers? What I mean is that so many younger kids are starting to train in MMA type disciplines yet the economy seems to be in a never ending downward spiral. What happens when kids train for a couple of years, pick up some skills then drift away from the training, surround themselves with the wrong crowd, end up with little money or prospects yet still posses dangerous knowlege? Is there a chance in the future that an aggressor innitiates an attack with a low kick / superman punch/ Thai knees from the clinch? has anyone thought about this before or even heard of anything similar? I got to say the thought of it really scares me.

 

I like your point on using verbal dissuasion Paul, it’s probably the most under utilised yet incredibly important aspects of self defence.

 

Another thing that will affect Self Defence situations is the environment you come from. Where I work at least 85% of the youths carry a type of blade with them at all times. About 50% of men you see on the main street have a visible facial scar. Where I live probably less than 5% will carry an edged weapon. If I was attacked near my work I’m pretty certain I’d be attacked with a lockback (a 2inch bladed knife) If I was attacked where I live I believe it would be far less likely to be attacked with such a weapon. I believe it would be a regular house hold type knife.

May 13, 2012
6:56 pm
rob davis
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While reading your post about attackers using mma styled attacks I was thinking about the scene from Enter the dragon where you see all the henchman practicing they’re kata for Han. haha.

Seriously tho, when I was working the streets I never saw any evidence of attackers using more refined techniques for crimes. I am sure it dos happen in our crazy universe. I use to tell the boots in the academy that it didn’t matter where the punch comes from its still gonna hurt. What I meant was if a guy who boxed for 10 years or just some knucklehead punches you on the nose i still hurts.

 

You are super correct about the environment effecting self defense. During the winter I would work more on gi wrestling due to the heavy clothes and coats worn by the criminals types and during the summer more no gi styled training due to the lack of clothing. Its really hard to lapel choke a drunken redneck wearing a wife beater t -shirt. Do you carry any type of weapons like a knife or chemicals or handgun? I of course carry a the greatest handgun known to man, the Beretta 40 cal. In my truck I have a baton, extra lockblade and a Spetnaz shovel.

May 14, 2012
2:24 am
paul thomas
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Naturalbornfighter1

More things to think about there dude !

The point about trained fighters in the street is an interesting one , i read somewhere that the reason most old kung fu styles were a bit secretive about there techniques and the applications of the forms they learned was because kids would go and learn the basics then drop out and join the triads etc to make money, not sure how true it is but it sounds feasible .

I cant say i have ever seen anything in a street fight or on the door that looked like a trained fighter and im not sure how a  trained fighter would be able use his knowledge if he was full of drink or drugs lol ? if you look back at the first few UFC events it had a lot of trained fighters and martial artists who lost all there knowledge or maybe the ability to apply there technique when the rules etc were taken away and the sh*t hit the fan , they were left swinging wildly and scrabbling around to defend themselves or control there opponent thus leaving people like the gracies who had experience in real world and dare i say street fights to sweep the field .

however i could see the trained thing fitting in maybe with gang members etc who fight maybe not from drink or drugs but to control territory and rival gangs etc , Its a scary thought .

on a more positive note  the fact is that some of the nicest guys i have ever met where fighters and martial artists, people who could be a beast in the ring  but real gentlemen outside it .

all the best paul.

May 14, 2012
4:03 am
naturalbornfighter1
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Hey Rob, heehee, I love that scene, there’s one guy who is punching totally out of time with the rest of them hahaha. It always cracks me up. 🙂

 

The Gi training in the winter and nogi in the summer is a great idea. I’d never considered that before. It makes a lot of sense. 

 

I personally don’t carry any weapons. It’s illegal over here to carry any type of weapon. To be honest where I work the police don’t go anywhere near anyone that looks Tough/suspicious/guilty or anyone that’s notorious. They only ever pull over people that look innocent or people that aren’t out looking for trouble so I get pulled over by them regularly. It’s a total joke really. I work in one of the most ‘deprived’ areas in the world yet there is a whole number of 17 year olds who can barely write their own name but they drive around in £40,000 mercedes, porche and bmw jeeps. They NEVER get pulled over EVER. sorry for rambling I went off on a wee tangent there haha.

 

Paul, thats pretty interesting about the kung fu kids and the triads. It sounds very plausible to me.

The point about the trained fighters attacking people I was making I wasn’t really thinking about them being drunk or on drugs. I was thinking more like someone taking money out the cash machine and being attacked off someone. More like mugging situations. 

 

I totally agree about fighters being real nice folks. I went to a UFC in 2005 and met a whole load of elite fighters including Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Jens Pulver, GSP, Chris Lytle, Matt Serra and loads others. Every one of them was a total gentleman!! I believe if you train enough until you’re confident in your abilities you will become humble.

May 14, 2012
4:34 am
paul thomas
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I can see where your coming from there , be a real shock to get a flying knee or superman punch when your stood at the cash point lol ! going by the explosion of mma gyms and martial arts clubs offering mma classes that are springing up around here i think you have valid point about a new generation of better trained thugs , like i say its scary stuff .

Its funny that round here too the guys who run ” an off licence ” but with possible other side lines ! seem to be smoking round the area in the latest ferrari and lambo s and never ever get pulled .

they are far too busy hiding round corners in groups with a speed gun !

cheers paul .

May 14, 2012
11:00 pm
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I hate to be so cynical but I can’t help myself.  I’ve got to take a jab.  The reason the dudes in the cool cars never get pulled over is because they also pay for police protection if you know what I mean.  It happens all the time.  A dime store hood takes a few bills in chump change and gets a few officers kneeling on his neck.  US Bank steals in upwards of the Millions and no one even gets a warning citation. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/v/S6svA6Qvq1U

 

Oh wait, nevermind… they actually assist the White Collar Criminals who are holding people’s money against their will and arrest citizens with every right to withdraw their funds and close their accounts.

 

It’s like Rodger Waters once said.  “Can’t you see? It all make perfect sense.  Expressed in dollars and cents and schillings and pence.  Can’t you see?  It all makes perfect sense.”

May 14, 2012
11:57 pm
paul thomas
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Dr sick 

Its the same story the world over dude ! 

the youtube clip was pretty harsh , whats with the rope the cops all seem to have ? are they going to start lassoing people !!

all the best paul

May 15, 2012
3:48 am
naturalbornfighter1
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It makes a lot of sense. To be honest I always just thought the police were scared. I know of a multi, multi million pound drugs/ gun racket that has been well publicised in the news and they guys involved are definitly not to be messed with. I dont think the police feel it’s worth risking their lives and their families lives to try and stop the operation at all for the sake of doing a job.

 

We need more Serpico’s.

May 15, 2012
4:08 am
paul thomas
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naturalbornfighter1 said

It makes a lot of sense. To be honest I always just thought the police were scared. I know of a multi, multi million pound drugs/ gun racket that has been well publicised in the news and they guys involved are definitly not to be messed with. I dont think the police feel it’s worth risking their lives and their families lives to try and stop the operation at all for the sake of doing a job.

 

We need more Serpico’s.

Its probably the deal here tbh , everyone knows these guys supply drugs ,you dont buy that many lambo s or bentleys from running a little off licence !! but i would not be sticking my nose in i know that lol !

cheers paul 

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