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4:47 pm
September 30, 2010
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Though I am very young, I have had the honor of teaching Tae Kwon Do and Self Defense. An issue that often emerges when you are teaching self defense is: How far do you go? How far am I willing to take people? Because once you cross that line, even if only knowledge and not experience there is no coming back. Just to specify I am not equating an experience with knowledge here, I am saying that it is a massive responsibility once you have crossed the lethal threshold. As anyone who has instructed will tell you, this is a big issue and both sides of the argument. On one side is what if these people need these techniques to survive! What if that one time someone invades their home they don't have the knowledge to prevail? What if they die because I did not teach them what they needed to know? Or what if someone else dies because they couldn't stop an attack/rape etc? The other side of the argument is: What if they are not ready for this? What if someone dies because I taught this person lethal techniques and that person did not deserve to die? What if they use this information irresponsibly? People are more likely to use lethal force if they have the ability on hand always for lethal force! Are these people ready to deal with the psychological pain that will come from using these techniques?
All in all I'd like your opinions on this topic, How to tell if someone is ready for these? Do I even cross that threshold with anyone? How far does one actually need to delve before it is sufficient? What are your opinions on lethal force in general? Here is my conclusions I have drawn.
90% of all altercations can be avoided and of that 10% 5-7% will be someone who wants to fight you, for pride or money or whatever, they are seeking to be victorious, not to kill you. 2% (These are estimates) of these altercations will be very dangerous and possibly lethal or damaging, such as a rape scenario or kidnapping scenario. and only a whopping 1% will be where someones only objective is to kill you right then and there. For the majority of these scenarios standard techniques will do, and someone can easily be taught how to use objects to kill if they absolutely must. So equip someone with this power and they will have the knowledge (Maybe not the ability)to get out of 99% of all confrontations. Now on the off chance that a person is in the 1% where it is kill or be killed, they are either very unlucky, or and most likely they are in something they shouldn't be involved in, or are somewhere they shouldn't go. My conclusion for the average person is that these techniques should not be taught PERIOD. The average person will never need them, and if they are in a position where they need them, they probably put themselves in it. Young people (Yes like me) have a tendency to want to try these things, or are far more likely to use them in a confrontation that was not genuinely lethal. This is also true for most people but even more so for teens/young adults. Children and Teens should not be taught this as a general rule, simply because of the fact that teens with the maturity and responsibility level to handle such information wisely are far and few between. I have come to the conclusion that, only three types of people should be taught these. Police, Military, and Dedicated students who have shown themselves mature, and ready in the DoJo and out of the DoJo, and who don't ask for lethal techniques.
With that I'v started off, now there are still a lot of areas to be covered here Opinions??? ~TCMAG
*To Specify I am not talking about techniques that COULD become lethal such as a choke, but rather techniques that ARE lethal or crippling no matter how you look at it.
8:21 am
Post Chaser
July 23, 2009
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I myself and for my methodology. I use no references to Self Defense let alone lethal. This is because I believe 99% of martial artist capitolize on the moniker and don't fully understand what they are doing. I am not singling anyone out or style but from my broad range no art is immune from this.
- Showing dated unproven techniques.
- Aren't working with gross motor mechanics
- they don't work de escalation principles, or more realistic enviroments
- Aren't using Adrenal dump scenarios so a person can try to use application in high stress enviroment.
- give most people a false sense of security about their abilities. – this one is a big problem IMO.
- Have no clue how to deal with the blade, or handgun(offensively and defensively). Using implements chalk knife(or Shock knife), high quality airsoft, and proper PPE are great way to work this scenarios more realist.
- Its a money bringer for "womens self defense" WTF don't gentleman deserve the same regard to life?
- Do they actually consider the added element of the attacker being of of those freaks, tweaking, high pain tolerance, or has grave intent?
that is just the training aspects that if see issues. Civil Issues
- Most do not ever mention example cases of what happend, scenarios to prevent it in future. Q&A of what they did wrong for person to get in situation.
- Teaching people what to do in homes, car, or other enviroments to minimize potential of altercations.
- Teaching a person that they get alot of what they sow based on personal presence and enviroment you exposed too. If you leave your self to either be interpreted one way,(loose female, or punk thug). You are far more likely to have altercations. So church it up some, gain some morality and many problems are solved.
- Getting legal advice before an altercation happens. What can I do? Talk to a lawyer and local law enforcement.
- Understand the civilian force escalation triaingle. It varies from they typical law enforcement. Good rule of thumb you can apply no more force than what the original intent was or to stop the agressor. If you go one step past stopping the agressor, guess what you become the agressor.
- Do they teach the 21' rule? I doubt it. Most martial arts schools who don't involve handguns probably don't even know what it is. Its application goes beyond handguns.
I also believe a bunch of these "lethal" techniques, primarily empty hand are martial magic showmanship "BS". An understanding of force, and basic anatomy is all that is needed for lethal. Simple RNC is lethal if the applier chooses, Spike elbow could be. I ordered a Muay Thai video for home study. The series showed a downward spike elbow to the base of the head. I felt that was completely irresponsible of the instructor for a video for home training. Again, I don't ever bring up the topic myself as 'self defense' when it has been proposed to me I have referred them to other instructors. Some who have done alot of the homework. Lethal force Institute should be mandatory for anyone teaching self defense. Mas Ayoob is the instructor. He is a preverbial expert on lethal force, and defending justified lethal force. http://www.ayoob.com If you take his 40hr course and end up having to use lethal force and he feels you were justified he will be an expert witness on your behalf. That is understanding self defense.
- I guess to sum up this extended post is teaching 'lethal' is over rated, over stated and when applicable from the wrong parties is irresponsible. I consider myself the the last one 'wrong party' I don't have all the other pieces of the puzzle to be a responsible party for lethal force self defense.
- I have a training partner of 3 years and I have yet to bring anything into that context. I do believe he is self aware of how to apply forces to sensitive parts of the body to do it on his own. I really doubt unless my personal beliefs on self defense change I will never bring it up.
that is just my .02 cents worth.
3:56 pm
Post Leader
July 9, 2009
Offline
I used to teach self-defence classes. I started up one class and the first week I had one person, the next week I had three people, The next week ten, the next week fourteen. The week I got fourteen people I was showing them a technique where the assailant ended up bent over. I was showing a variety of options from that position off the top of my head. One was an elbow to the back of the head. As I did it a lady asked me what's the worst thing that could happen to your attacker if you did that. I said It's possible that in the worst possible scenario you could end up killing them. The Shock and horror on everyones faces was incredible. I then explained that a simple kick to the shin could chip the bone and it could end up in the bloodstream and cause a blood clot that could also lead to death. I said a simple strike to the chin could knock someone over and as a result crack their head off the pavement which has been the cause of many deaths.
I further pointed out that the technique depended on the circumstances of the situation. I said would you do the move to someone asking for money? the answer would be no. But what if the attacker had been holding your mother or daughter with a knife to her throat? If you felt your attacker was genuinely going to kill you?
The next week I had one student again.
Getting back to your original point I believe that principals are more important than actual moves for non martial artists. The more dangerous moves don't need to be taught .As Wylothar said Avoidance, Awareness and adrenal reactions will be more beneficial. Prevention is better than cure.
5:05 pm
September 30, 2010
Offline
Thanks for the opinions! I totally agree with both of you in the teaching awareness part, Legal aspects etc.
9:44 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
naturalbornfighter1 said:
I further pointed out that the technique depended on the circumstances of the situation. I said would you do the move to someone asking for money? the answer would be no. But what if the attacker had been holding your mother or daughter with a knife to her throat? If you felt your attacker was genuinely going to kill you.
The next week I had one student again.
LOL. That is so much like the experiences I've had over the years. Here in Utah, there are a lot of church groups that approach me for Self Defense workshops. Bless their hearts, they just want to protect themselves and their loved ones. They have no desire to injure, maim or harm anyone else. Even the bad guys. They want a magical imobilizing and totally humane spock lock that they can learn in a hour and defend themselves with. I always explain the realities of the situation to the group leader before we get together and then ask, do they want a few fun moves to pass the time and have fun with but that will really not have that much utility when it comes to saving lives, or do they want to go down the darker path of facing the true ugly head of lethal force encounters. 9 times out of 10 they pick the fun version. And I'm happy with that, so long as they understand, and I try to make it as clear as possible, that what they are learning is a recreational and minute aspect of empty handed self defense.
Utlimately, I feel that teaching self confidence and preparedness is ten times more effective than any hand to hand technique when it comes to Self Defense. If you can accomplish that, you've done a great job as far as I'm concerned. From that point chances are, they won't be a target in the first place. If you can earn their trust, then over time, I think you can slowly migrate towards a more hardcore mindset.
I also think that education is the key. First, education for the instructors. What is the anatomy of an attack? Who gets attacked, how to predators "troll" or select their marks? Rarely is it the bad guy in the bushes who jumps out in a ski mask which is the scenario most Self Defense Instructors most often address.
I think education of your students is also key. Listening to a police scanner on a given night for instance. Listening to real 911 recordings, things that will give them a feel for the realities of the types of people they are dealing with. I just don't think that many of them really comprehend the level of evil that exists out there.
Best of luck to all of you out there that are fighting the good fight and trying to help folks perpare for the worst case scenario.
10:21 pm
Post Chaser
July 23, 2009
Offline
Well, said Dr. Sick
Utlimately, I feel that teaching self confidence and preparedness is ten times more effective than any hand to hand technique when it comes to Self Defense. If you can accomplish that, you've done a great job as far as I'm concerned. From that point chances are, they won't be a target in the first place. If you can earn their trust, then over time, I think you can slowly migrate towards a more hardcore mindset.
I also think that education is the key. First, education for the instructors. What is the anatomy of an attack? Who gets attacked, how to predators "troll" or select their marks? Rarely is it the bad guy in the bushes who jumps out in a ski mask which is the scenario most Self Defense Instructors most often address.
I think education of your students is also key. Listening to a police scanner on a given night for instance. Listening to real 911 recordings, things that will give them a feel for the realities of the types of people they are dealing with. I just don't think that many of them really comprehend the level of evil that exists out there.
Best of luck to all of you out there that are fighting the good fight and trying to help folks perpare for the worst case scenario.
When I did help with a self defense course at a local community college.
we had students bring in news stories and we would discuss them. And ask what led them to be at risk. We then went of the zones of safety, green, yellow, orange, red. and how when you are in a more familiar enviroment your green will be larger than when you in a foreign enviroment. and vice versa with your red zone.This zone is in a 360 degree sphere also.
We then would discuss how to aid in awareness. Such as inconspicous place mirrors that would give you visability around corners in your own house. Never over exenting to reach into a car. Have your keys ready before you leave a store.
The one thing we didn't address well was adrenal nervous system control in scenarios. We did do some play acting for non aggressive postures and de escalation principles.
We would briefly cover the escalation of force diagram. And have a lawyer or police come and do a Q&A.
My local instructor is next semester starting to teach the class again. I will only be helping slightly and I think I will work on getting them to hit with intent and learning techniques.
it never addressed the true dark side as you have put it Dr. Sick. Lack of intensity in application and stress control.
And well on my own I have chosen to focus on sport combatives, we need true self defense instructors but I don't feel I am worthy of such a feet.
3:53 am
Post Leader
July 9, 2009
Offline
I find it incredible sometimes that people believe in the 'spock lock' type idea heehee. Whenever I taught Self-Defence my main priority was not to give anyone false confidence. I like to give people the harsh realities of the situations more often than not. I'd hate to see someone get into a situation where they were in grave danger and I'd taught them garbage that didn't help them out.
I had one girl come to me for help one time. I asked why she wanted to learn self-defence. Usually people say I just want to be confident if I was ever attacked or something along those lines. This girl was sitting in a pub with friends when a man came up behind her and grabbed her hair. He used her hair to drag her on to the floor, knocking the chair over. When she hit the floor he pulled out a knife and slashed her numerous times and stabbed her a couple of times before he realised it was a case of mistaken identity and he ran away.
That was a huge wake up call for me. The reality of self-defence became a lot clearer for me and instead of imaginary scenario's there was a real dangerous situation. I ended up working on prioritising Awareness with her along with physical techniques. That made me realise I couldn't teach any wishy washy techniques. My focus shifted more to direct strikes to vital areas and escaping. It's an eye opener when you talk to a hard done to innocent victim.
9:35 am
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
Doing my own research into the awareness aspect I was very surprised when I discovered the State Registered Sex Offender Zip Code search and found how many "Registered" Sex offenders were within miles of my home in the "Good Part Of Town". Then I was also surprised to discover how many shootings and or gun brandishings have occured in or very near places I have been. The LDS Church History Library, The Triad Center, Trolley Square, Wal-Mart, Check Smart… These have all happened during my lifetime. IT CAN HAPPEN.
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