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Conflicting teachings...
January 26, 2011
12:43 am
Michael Mack
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Has anyone here ever went to another gym to train, but the instructor seems to teach wierd tecniques that you know aren't that great? A little back story: A few years ago I was learning Muay Thai from(Khru) Dr. Sick when I lived in Utah and everything I have learned I still practice today. Now I am currently back in my hometown of Milwaukee WI and I have recently joined a BJJ gym. There is a guy who is a independant Muay Thai(more like kickboxing for MMA) instructor. Well I have been taking the MT class and it seems like everything that I have learned isn't to his liking. On top of that a lot of stuff that he teaches goes against things that I have learned. I really trust what I have learned from Dr. sick and Coach Kiser but I'm not sure how to deal with my current situation. Anyone experiencing this?

January 26, 2011
1:30 am
wylothar

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Yes, I have. That is why I am so determiined to find an instructor in Texas that does the same methodologies. The bulk of the teaching of Muay Thai should be very similar along anyone in the TBA. Same goes for CSW. I have had grand difficulties getting such people. Everyone is HRS away from me. I am actually dreading the though of learning from a different modality. I figure I will probably just start a group up and hopefully can co-op enough to get the ability to get to these gentleman that are miles away. I am also doing that with my Kali also.

I have also had people come to work with us here in Wyoming and want to short circuit the progression. I just slow down tell them muay thai is so diverse I won't say they are wrong it just doesn't match our method of distrobuting the material and ask them to bear with me and I am sure we actually have more in common than different as things progress.

One key area is that some of the Non standardized Muay thai have a very boxing gym stle to them and they gloss over some of the simplist principles are fundementals and go straight to the stuff everyone want to do. Dr. Sick, Khru Will Bernales when I have had their assistance in person which has been only brief. They break things down real meticulusly. That is the same style I got from the Late Terry Gibson when I was doing privates with him back in '95 in Tulsa OK before moving back north. Over a decade and thousand miles the delivery of TBA is very deliberate and consistant.

I just bought the Khru Carver secrets of muay thai video series. Absolutely awsome so far. I haven't seen a single seminar move and very good instructing the instructor explanations. I am only on first dvd but, outside of the CSW and Guro Balicki videos the instruction is on par. This sereis was recommended to me by Khru Brian at my first Master Chai seminar.

I know some guys who are part of the WMTC muay thai. I am not sure of the differences. They seem to be a spinoff of TBA. Their progression is 90% the same as TBA from what I have seen. And the guys who I know who are Khru or Instructor rank are of high regards also.

 

Mike N.

January 26, 2011
9:40 am
Dr Sick

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I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind for a situation like this.  First is to keep an open mind.  There are more than one way to skin a cat.  One way isn't necessarily better than another.  Often times, especially when you find something that tends to be in direct contrast to what you are familiar with, what you've found is a second option.

 

This has happened to me a few times.  At first with Ajarn/Professor Leonard Trigg who's teachings have had the most influence on my Boxing Style, and the teachings of Coach Marvin Cook.  It took me three years of just keeping an open mind and learning Coach Cook's method which seemed completely opposite of what I learn from Ajarn Trigg, before I found a way to consolidate the two.  I still use the Trigg method as my starting point and the backbone of what I do.  But once in a while I run into someone who uses the Trigg method well enough that it neutralizes my game.  That's when the Cook method kicks in and gives me that second option.

 

The same type of thing happened when I first encountered Catch Wrestling.  It seemed to fly in the face of what I learned in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.  But over time, learning both and giving both their due respect, I found a way where when one method dead ends, the other takes over and gives me more options.

 

The key though is that all my instructors have been able to explain exactly why they were telling me to do, what they were telling me to do.  Everything I was being taught made pefect sense once it was explained by the instructors.  Even when what they were teaching was completely opposite of what my other instructor taught.  I have coaches that tell me never to use a head outside single leg takedown, they explain why and it makes perfect sense.  I have coaches that tell me never to use a head inside single leg takedown and why, and it makes perfect sense.  In the end I am left to decide which way best fits my physical build, limitations, tendancies, personality, etc.  But I make an informed decision.

 

If an instructor can't explain why they're telling you to do something in a particular way, in a manner that makes sense to you, I'd be leary of spending much more time under them.  Always be respectful, but you don't have to spend your time training under an instructor that can't make sense of the techniques he or she is teaching you.  That's my .02

January 26, 2011
11:27 am
bio-chem
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I agree with Dr. Sick in the way he approaches that situation. The thing to always remember is to keep an open mind and try everthing, but only keep what works for you. Everyone has their own strength and weaknesses and being able to recognize your own and work through them and get better and develop is a great asset to have.

January 26, 2011
11:45 am
TCMAG
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I too have encountered this issue, I believe a HUGE part of why this happens initially is personal experience, I'v met people who can pull of some crazy stuff that works perfectly but I can't do for the life of my. I can do stuff that others can't do for the life of them.  Factors of a persons speed, strength, training, background etc all influence how they get things done.  Also EVERY move has a counter, and a counter counter and a counter counter counter. So saying one method is completely wrong is in fact ignorant (within reason, I am talking about preferences not hard fact) For example, how to secure your hooks while in back mount.  Both my instructor and the BJJ instructor agree that crossing your ankles is NOT a good idea (Thanks for that ankle lock from that BTW) and both agree that the Body Triangle is one of the safest, even though you can get put in a calf slicer if the person is skilled enough (thanks to the guys over at Sub.101 for that one) where they begin to disagree is where the rules separate.  In BJJ there are no heelhooks so the BJJ instructor taught to turn your legs so your shin faced out and tuck your feet under their thighs.  I goto MMA class and do that, and get put in a very painful heelhook.  It you just place your feet together your far more open for the CACC shin lock.  So I guess my point is is that every position has a counter to it, so no matter what anyone tells you find what works best for you, or vary it depending on the skill, strength size etc of the person you are grappling.  I am convinced that there is no right or wrong way to do a technique only the principle remains the same. Leaving how you enact that principle up to you!

January 26, 2011
6:39 pm
bio-chem
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^^^good post with nice examples

January 27, 2011
5:45 pm
Michael Mack
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I think I will try and keep an open mind and have more options.

January 27, 2011
10:25 pm
bio-chem
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remember always be on the look out for things that work well for you. wherever they may be found.

January 27, 2011
11:06 pm
Dr Sick

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At the same time Michael, just because someone has some fights doesn't mean they understand what they are teaching.  Use good judgement.  But be courteous and respectful in what you decide to do and how you decide to do it.  You never want to burn a bridge when you can help it.

 

Then again, you might understand more about the striking game than he does.  There a lot of guys out there that think that if you go an hammer away on a heavy bag then get a couple of fights under them, they've pretty much figured out the striking game.  And nothing could be further from the truth.  Bawh!  I hope I haven't muddied the waters too much here.

January 28, 2011
2:08 am
Michael Mack
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Actually Dr Sick I think you pretty much called it. The instructor has had some fights and one of the blue belts(Who doesn't know how to preserve his training partner) has had a fight. When we do live sparring I'm using footwork to stay out of range and counter usually with the jab (and not get K.O.ed literally) but I'm constantly being corrected like it's bad to avoid taking puches. I also sense the macho attitude during kickboxing class. Everyone goes 80-90% and that seems ok to everyone. so to not get my block knocked off I naturally stay out and counter.

January 28, 2011
2:54 am
Dr Sick

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Not to sound like Kenny Rodgers but sometimes you've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run.

 

Those bangers are tough to deal with.  It's always a judgement call.  Sometimes the best thing to do is exactly what you're doing.  If you're significantly smaller than those guys (which I usually am), I usually play it safe, work defense and pot shot.  But if I'm the same size, sometimes the best thing to do is lay two or three of them out cold.  I've seen this happen a number of times with Jake Paul. 

 

I'll work with a fellow and he'll go balls out on me and they're usually 20 to 30 lbs heavier.  Then Jake will walk up, they'll start to bang around and then Jake starts trying to knock them into next week.  It's not an emotional pissed off sort of thing, it's just like, hey, alright, let's both turn it up all the way.  Then the bangers usually start mellowing out pretty good for Jake.

 

You know, another thing you might want to check out is the elbow to fist destruction video.  I love breaking hands on guys who like to try and kill me.  Usually after a few, they start to chill a bit.

 

But then, there's always politics.  One time a guy named Harold was trying to knock me out during training.  I didn't let him touch me, but I was hammering him with continual straight rights. I had him stunned a few times and right when I was about to go in for the finish, I thought "Man, Khru likes this guy, and I don't know if he'd be mad if I laid Harold out."  So I didn't.  Later Harold pissed off Khru and ended up getting kicked out of the school.  At any rate, with those politics, it can make things difficult sometimes though.

January 28, 2011
4:03 am
naturalbornfighter1

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This is a really great thread. To me it's all about options being a smaller guy I'm not often in dominant positions so I like to have options in any position Im placed in. Learning different methods and techniques is a good thing. As Dr.Sick says you will have something to fall back on If one way isn't working out. Do what Bruce Lee said Absorb what is useful and discard what doesn't work for you. I believe you can learn from white belts if you're astute enough however if you're paying someone for instruction then It's a different ball game. I would stick with them for a month or so then re-evaluate what you have gained from the time you have spent under their instruction. If you feel your game has significantly improved and you are happy in your surroundings then all is good. If not you may want to move on. Try to get value for the money you're paying someone. Thank the good Lord for Damage Control where we can just log on and learn from the best instructors around at the click of a mouse!! Smile

January 28, 2011
6:41 am
wylothar

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i would agree this is a good topic.

I don't like working with guys who want to work ON you and not WITH you. I believe I heard it phrased that way from Ajarn Greg Nelson. Even if the guy is smaller and he is throwing zingers it makes me hesitant.

This is a tidbit I am keeping in the back of my head as I relocate. I have worked hard here and have full faith in my partners/ students. As I goto a new state, new gyms. I am a big guy so I imagine they will assume I want to bang or just test me. Sigung Fajardo made me aware of this also.

January 28, 2011
9:48 am
anointed fighter

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the more i learn from others whether it be in class, reading, or watching vids here, the more i completely understand how much i don't know, how much i have to learn.  i initially started doing a Haganah (Fierce Israeli Guerilla Hand-to-Hand Tactics, or "FIGHT") class and soon realized that many of the guys in there were a bunch of hard-asses that were just there to compare the size of their gear.  don't get me wrong, the instructors there were good at demonstrating and explaining the techniques, but it seemed like when we rolled, the people were always trying to get armbars when we were just warming up with reversing a full mount.  where i am now, i realized that the philosophies of the two places had varied, not greatly, but you could sense the differences of opinion and differences of fellow students working with you.

i like that quote about absorbing and discarding because i've never thought of it in that light.  Wednesday night, i went to the gym after work and was there with just 3 other guys.  the instructor for the MMA class was working with me doing light sparring.  i had questions about what i should do in this situation or that situation.  as he broke down how he would attack someone covering their head against the ropes and what openings to look for, he stopped and said "Kyle, it's all what comes comfortable."  he reminded me to mind my footwork and stay on the defensive even on offense.  what i took away is that regardless of who you started to learn from, the place you're at now may enable you to find your groove, hit you niche, and then work from there.  find what areas you're good at and work harder on the ones that are lacking.  be open to contrasting techniques and rationally find an ecletic view, so to speak.

i appreciate sincerely learning from everyone's experiences here.  it has opened my eyes and has given me a new definition to MIXED martial arts.  thanks!

January 28, 2011
11:16 am
Dickey

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Those fist destructions made my day. That's such a simple, but authoritive and powerful little trick. I've never had any problem with questionable teachings, besides the general idea around where I live of just throwing like a rabid monkey, because the only instruction I've had is Damage Control, the best of the best ;) I suppose there have been a few wrestling camps I've attended that have taught some techniques that made me stop and think, but they explained why they work and and how in great detail, and after some practice, they are quite successful.

Speaking of the size difference Dr Sick mentioned, last night my team had a wrestling duel and I suffered my first loss of the season. I'm sitting at 28-1 right now. It stung a bit, but I learned from it. I wrestle 215 weight class, but I only weigh 198. I'm usually much more solid technically than my opponents, but I have a lot of power for my size and use it intelligently. My opponent had cut 20lbs just to make 215, and was a solid 215 of muscle. He really had no skill at all, just his brute force that he used well. He was the kind of strong to where even though I would take a picture perfect shot (watched it on film) with good setups and everything, he still could just strongarm his way out of it. It's one of the worst feelings when everything you try turns out to be unsuccessful. Because my experience, though, in practice I worked skills I would use against a strong opponent and made some big bounds and figured a few ways to stop the aggression and power of opponents.

That really didn't have a whole lot to do with most of the thread, just one of Dr Sick's comments, but I had to tell someone. :)

January 28, 2011
1:06 pm
naturalbornfighter1

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The fist destructions were awesome! The one with about a minute to go was done so beautifully, the way Dr.Sick parries the hand and brings the elbow round to catch the next was so slick!

 

I've caught someone's elbow with one of my punches and it was excruciating. I'm going to start practicing my timing and distance for that one.

 

Reminds me of Ken Norton Jr's cross arm defence. I'm such a student of the game, this fight happened four years before I was born haha Laughing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mmlh9erxFM

January 28, 2011
2:27 pm
Dr Sick

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naturalbornfighter1 said:

The fist destructions were awesome! The one with about a minute to go was done so beautifully, the way Dr.Sick parries the hand and brings the elbow round to catch the next was so slick!

 

I've caught someone's elbow with one of my punches and it was excruciating. I'm going to start practicing my timing and distance for that one.

 

Reminds me of Ken Norton Jr's cross arm defence. I'm such a student of the game, this fight happened four years before I was born haha Laughing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mmlh9erxFM


Great clip natualbornfighter1!  Awewsome!  I believe the guard you're talking about is sometimes refered to as the "Archie Moore" style, which is what Kiser's Hockey Check is based on.  Joe Frasier occasionally phased in and out of the Moore style during his fights.

 

I absolutely love hearing Angelo Dundee commentate.  I would really love to train under him and pick his brain a bit.

January 28, 2011
2:28 pm
Dr Sick

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Dickey said:

Those fist destructions made my day. That's such a simple, but authoritive and powerful little trick. I've never had any problem with questionable teachings, besides the general idea around where I live of just throwing like a rabid monkey, because the only instruction I've had is Damage Control, the best of the best ;) I suppose there have been a few wrestling camps I've attended that have taught some techniques that made me stop and think, but they explained why they work and and how in great detail, and after some practice, they are quite successful.

Speaking of the size difference Dr Sick mentioned, last night my team had a wrestling duel and I suffered my first loss of the season. I'm sitting at 28-1 right now. It stung a bit, but I learned from it. I wrestle 215 weight class, but I only weigh 198. I'm usually much more solid technically than my opponents, but I have a lot of power for my size and use it intelligently. My opponent had cut 20lbs just to make 215, and was a solid 215 of muscle. He really had no skill at all, just his brute force that he used well. He was the kind of strong to where even though I would take a picture perfect shot (watched it on film) with good setups and everything, he still could just strongarm his way out of it. It's one of the worst feelings when everything you try turns out to be unsuccessful. Because my experience, though, in practice I worked skills I would use against a strong opponent and made some big bounds and figured a few ways to stop the aggression and power of opponents.

That really didn't have a whole lot to do with most of the thread, just one of Dr Sick's comments, but I had to tell someone. :)


Dickey, I'd love to hear what adjustments you'd make to counter what happened to you in your last wrestling meet. 

January 28, 2011
4:25 pm
bio-chem
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I've never even thought of that fist destruction technique. beautiful in it's simplicity. problem is i train with some really great guys and I would feel bad using it on them just to learn it. Guess I'll have to wait till we get another one of the 'bangers' to show up to sparring class.

January 28, 2011
5:03 pm
wylothar

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Yes that destruction technique is WAY higher percentage than the other ones I had learned from Kali. I believe the other can still be used but this one is my favorite for that theory. I use it in drills. I don't try to pull it in sparring much because like others, I like my training partners.

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