Log In
Register
Home
12:16 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
I've posted many similar topics over the years in various forums. In fact, I'm reposting a thread I started somewhere else here, with some updated information and consolidating the information I've posted in other related threads here and there.
In my 36 years of life, I can recall at least 4 incidents near my place of dwelling/work that have involved close quarters shootings.
1. KSL Building
2. LDS Church Library
3. Trolly Square Shooting
4. Wal Mart Near Shooting (unfortunately KUTV has dropped this story from it's archives)
During the week of 10/07/2009, at a Wal Mart where I've actually shopped for 12 gauge ammo a couple of times, a disgruntled former employee returned with a gun with the intent of killing his former manager. He was arrested without incident, but I can't help but think, what if? We were there not more than 30 minutes before the incident occured.
Last week (12/08/2010) I was in a local grocery store and entered the checkout line, not more than 20 feet away from where this happened. I was in line, while the situation unfolded.
I don't ever want to be in the position of being a victim, just sitting there waiting to die.
All of these situations occured during my lifetime and in places I've actually been. These places are all in what would be considered the "Good Part Of Town". It can happen. It has happened. I want you all to be prepared.
I will be using this thread to bring more information forth concening the mental preparation for real world, self defense situations. And by self defense, I mean, survival, not necessarily armed or unarmed combat. Awareness is our greatest safety tool.
1:04 pm
November 20, 2010
Offline
great forum topic. I hope that this discussion really takes off. I've been in similar situations and each time it makes you think. In my mind a Concealed Carry Permit COUPLED with proper training (by this i mean more than once or twice at a gun range) is a place to start. I really like your topic of survival. because thats what it is. I don't pretend to think that everyone should go out and get a gun and CCP and walk around armed. guns aren't for everyone I recognize that, but the discussion is good to have none the less.
3:12 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
It goes far beyond Concealed Carry, and Unarmed Self Defense. In any of these so called real world scenarios (those presented above) the ideal situation for me, would simply be to be out of the situation without being harmed. As cowardly as it may sound, I am not in the business of protecting anyone but myself and anyone who I may have in my immediate care at that point in time. I'm no hero and I don't pretend to be.
In these situations, successful self defense means (for me), I have removed myself (and anyone in my care) from harms way, alive and unharmed.
My awareness of a situation that was unfolding during the US Bank Robbery, is in my opinion, far more useful and beneficial than any weapons based, hand to hand knowledge or ability that I might have.
3:22 pm
Post Chaser
April 15, 2010
Offline
Are you talking about the US Bank Robbery where 5 people were taken hostage and executed in the bank? That happened only several miles from my home and I was across the street at the time. It really opens your eyes that bad things DO happen, whether we want to believe it or not, and the best thing in that situation would be to be mentally calm and prepared, along with the other factors that you have so far mentioned.
3:33 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
No, Dickey, I was actually talking about a US Bank Robbery that occured in a grocery store that I was in during the time it happened. It was last week and the link is included above. No one was physically harmed to my knowledge.
I only mention the accounts above because they have significance to me personally. They have happened during my lifetime, all in places that I have been to or frequent. All happened in what are considered, good, wholesome, family oriented, low crime, uppermiddle class areas (with the exception of perhaps the KSL building, it's downtown SLC, but really it's within walking distance of the Energy Solutions Arena where the Utah Jazz Basketball team play and thousands of people frequent nearly every weekend and the LDS Temple).
3:42 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
Here is something that I've watched numerous times. It's the "Rambling Ruminations – January 2006" video clip found on this page:
http://www.dogbrothers.com/pag…..media.html
I've since been very inspired by the idea of "We the unorganized Militia". Those of us who are ready to fend for ourselves without the help of big brother, the police (who will always show up as an afterthought), or some other third party. The idea of those brave souls on flight 93, who given a choice, would probably just gotten off the plane, but given their ugly situation, took fate into their own hands and did what they could to take back their only life line, and save themselves.
3:44 pm
September 30, 2010
Offline
This is a very important topic that needs to be addressed. This is a topic that from the outside it looks very cut and dry, however once you delve into the Knity Gritty of it very complex. I like to classify Self Defense in three main levels
Level 1: The Preventative stages that range from good habits and awareness to defusing a situation once it has escalated to words and maybe a light shove.
A. Pre-Confrontation
B. Verbal Confrontation
C. Physical and Verbal goads
Level 2: The Brawl, where you are in a fight for your dignity or your nose not your life.
A. CQC
B. Grappling
C. Midrange
Level 3: Combat, this is where it is Kill or be Killed, Maim or Be Maimed.
A. Bladed Weapons
B. Range Weapons
C. Blunt Force Weapons
D. Hand to Hand
Tackle all this PROPERLY and I think you will have a good grasp on it. As far as some very common things I hear about Self Defense that I don't think are true:
1. On the street Martial Arts are not used and are inapplicable. To an extent this is true but in Level 2 situations like a school yard fight Martial arts can be VERY useful. Also who is to say that the other guy doesn't know any martial arts? People always assume that on the street no one knows martial arts, this is no the case. Take Tae Kwon Do for example it is THE most practiced MA with around 2 million practitioners (Or around there somewhere). With Instructors telling students that a high kick works in a fight on the street, they might try a high kick on the street. Also learning to take the high percentage stuff from MA is applicable A front Kick works wonders, but a jump spin whatever does not most of the time. Its all about: Can I do this in an unpredictable environment? To say that Martial Arts will always loose on the street is folly but to say Martial Arts is the be all and end all is false as well.
2. You will come out of a Level 3 confrontation unscathed. This is complete and utter BS! If someone wants to kill you it is very easy to do so, if they are letting you see the knife or the gun or the club they want to intimidate you or they want something off you. You will be lucky to escape a Level 3 confrontation with your life, cause 9/10 your screwed no matter how much training you have!
3. Learn the ball shot and the eye gouge and WALLAH your now safe! While defending yourself a groin shot does wonders as does and eye gouge and headbutt. But people need to get real: you need more than that. You must TRAIN stuff to be safe, going to a Seminar and learning groin shot and eye gouge gives you a nice little demo but doesn't give you anywhere near the stuff you need.
4. Women can overcome mens upper body strength easily when doing a move. If you're a woman and just push around one of your guy friends you will know this is true, guys just have alot of upper body strength compared to women. It makes me mad when I see: Self Defense Class! I walk in to see a bunch of 40 year old women working with other 40 year old women doing it not near hard enough to work on a guy and the instructor saying Good Job that'l work! The Instructor is giving these women a false sense of security, they need to train with men who give them at least 80% resistance once they have the technique. It would be better off if you gave them a lecture about mentality and Brutality in a fight rather than technique.
5. Size doesn't matter. BULL!! Size can be overcome, but it is not as easy as alot of people make it out to be. If they mean bigger by 10-15 pounds yeah thats not a huge deal, but me personally weighing in at 130 lbs alot of other guys have around 50 pounds on me. It makes a HUGE difference, and size can not always be beaten by technique. Its just the sad truth, Size matters.
Well that is my most basic little overview of self defense and some of what people say about it. Oh and personally a think a collapsible baton is one of the best self defense tools ever to hit the market. I'd take it over a knife or Kubaton any day. Mace is also great. (I am talking for those of use not yet old enough to carry a hand gun and those of us unwilling to shoot someone) Stay safe! ~TCMAG
4:35 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
An argument for knowledge of empty handed self defense training.
5:14 pm
September 30, 2010
Offline
Yes I actually watched this a few days ago and man it took me by surprise. Not the fact that the cop got beat up, but the fact that the guy took pepper spray, a point blank gun shot to the abdomen and a beating with the gun and he STILL wouldn't drop. That just amazes me
10:49 pm
November 20, 2010
Offline
That video is nuts. I train with a few cops and I very much respect their MMA skills, but the truth is there is always someone out there bigger and badder. open handed training isn't going to do a whole lot in that situation pictured. giving up 100lbs against a former pro-heavyweight boxer? the guy took a bullet to the gut and kept going. what could anyone have done differently?
11:04 pm
Post Chaser
April 15, 2010
Offline
My grandpa (used to underground fight in bars as a teen for money) always told me, the best way to win a confrontation, is to not get in one, but that isn't always applicable to the situation. I'm beginning to see that, aside from extensive skill and training and confidence in that skill and training, there really is no way to prepare for situations like that. No matter how amazingly disciplined and trained a person is, there is always someone better. Other factors go into the matter, too, like if one person is in an anger rage or nearly beserk; or one of the combatants has something to fight for, like the well being or life of themselves or loved ones; or the attitude, morals, character, and personality of the combatants, and just the surroundings and onset of the confrontation. I'm really no expert on this. To be honest, I'm barely experienced in this area at all. I'm just voicing my thoughts here. I've had a few scuffles, and have had a kinfe pulled on me (long story, but I was standing up for a girl who was being abused verbally and physically), and have seen a gun pulled more than once, but nothing that was really bone-chilling (besides the knife incident, but as he came at me, I grabbed his wrist quick and bent it backward and carefully got the weapon away. Running wasn't an option in the situation, no exit and he was approaching fast. Just thought I made the next-smartest decision).
If anyone has had any experiences here, please share with us your thoughts on how to prepare for, or at least what to be ready for, mental and physical, in that tense, life or death, or even black eye or broken nose situation.
11:53 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
bio-chem said:
That video is nuts. I train with a few cops and I very much respect their MMA skills, but the truth is there is always someone out there bigger and badder. open handed training isn't going to do a whole lot in that situation pictured. giving up 100lbs against a former pro-heavyweight boxer? the guy took a bullet to the gut and kept going. what could anyone have done differently?
I disagree, to an extent. In no way am I criticizing this fine police officer. He survived. That's good enough.
However, I do think he could have benefitted from empty hands training. Don't try and out box a boxer, if hes pressing you that hard, you can shoot a double, an outside leg trip, or if you've studied some boxing of your own, you can circle out. On the ground, I think the Guard and any submission wrestling experience could have been quite beneficial.
When the assailant was standing over the grounded officer, he could have vined a leg and worked for a sweep and even a leg lock. I don't think that a broken leg would have stopped the bad guy, but I do think it would have stiffled his ability to move well.
4:28 am
Post Leader
July 9, 2009
Offline
I agree, even as he comes in my own instinct would be to try and grab a standing arm triangle choke. from that position his punches would not have range or angle to generate power and hopefully you'd be able to put him to sleep. In the reality of the situation it may unravel completely differently. Even a knowledge of basic footwork would be advantageous. An idea of balance breaking would help too. I admire the officer greatly for surviving for so long against such a monster. Pepper spray to the eyes and a bullet to the abdomen would stop most people but if you've applied those and he still keeps coming? Mentally he must have been thinking that 'nothing will stop this man' That's hard to recover from.
There have been a few incidents in and around my life that have involved firearms. My mum used to work in a bank and she was held up with a loaded sawn off shot gun. The guy had the Gun in a plastic bag. My mum looked up to serve him and said 'can I help you?' He tapped the steel of the gun on the counter and said 'give me all the money in your till and don't make a noise.'
My mum filled the bag with money but she also put the fake notes with exploding dye in it. As the robber left the bank he ran along towards the nearby underground station. As he was running the dye exploded all over him, two police officers spotted him, he got caught and he went to jail. I remember my dad picking me up early from school that day. It was scary to think the gun was loaded.
8:29 am
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
naturalbornfighter1 said:
My mum filled the bag with money but she also put the fake notes with exploding dye in it. As the robber left the bank he ran along towards the nearby underground station. As he was running the dye exploded all over him, two police officers spotted him, he got caught and he went to jail. I remember my dad picking me up early from school that day. It was scary to think the gun was loaded.
Sounds like your "mum" played it just right. She scores high on the Self Defense "TEST".
9:41 am
November 20, 2010
Offline
Dr Sick said:
bio-chem said:
That video is nuts. I train with a few cops and I very much respect their MMA skills, but the truth is there is always someone out there bigger and badder. open handed training isn't going to do a whole lot in that situation pictured. giving up 100lbs against a former pro-heavyweight boxer? the guy took a bullet to the gut and kept going. what could anyone have done differently?
I disagree, to an extent. In no way am I criticizing this fine police officer. He survived. That's good enough.
However, I do think he could have benefitted from empty hands training. Don't try and out box a boxer, if hes pressing you that hard, you can shoot a double, an outside leg trip, or if you've studied some boxing of your own, you can circle out. On the ground, I think the Guard and any submission wrestling experience could have been quite beneficial.
When the assailant was standing over the grounded officer, he could have vined a leg and worked for a sweep and even a leg lock. I don't think that a broken leg would have stopped the bad guy, but I do think it would have stiffled his ability to move well.
In no way am I being disrespectful. I'm truly trying to discuss in order to gain a better understanding. I fully recognize your experience and wisdom over mine on all such subject matter. And ultimately it will always be to your opinion I defer and seek out.
While it didn't appear that he had any open hands training, I'm not in a position to say he doesn't either. Police officers do go through training in how to subdue individuals and many things need to go into consideration. Giving up 100 lbs is quite the disadvantage, even for an individual trained. If the boxer falls into a sprawl while the officer goes for a take down the officers gun, now becomes exposed to the boxer and the officer has little ability to defend his gun. if it is after the gun has jammed and dropped then I would be worried about somehow the boxer ending up on top, or even landing strikes from the bottom. scrambling and keeping distance seem to be the only safe recourse of action in the situation presented as I saw it. I guess my ultimate question is at what point does technique overcome size and strength? considering into the equation that the individual opposite you has some technique as well. In this case pro level boxing.
12:33 pm
October 29, 2010
Offline
Really great topic. When it comes to surviving a real world situation you generally have 5 responses.
1. De-escalate 2. Assert 3. Escape 4. Comply 5. Fight
These are not in any particular order and various combinations can be applied depending on the situation.
12:41 pm
October 29, 2010
Offline
As far as the video goes. This is a clear case of weapon dependency. The officer drew his weapon when the range was not condusive to it. The more strategic optiion would of been to disengage and run behind the squad car. Use the car as a barrier then draw the weapon from that distance. I am by no means wanting to be an arm chair QB in this, but I hope law enforcement can learn from this and realize that your best weapon is always going to be your mind and your body, don't be too quick to draw a gun, because while you are struggling to draw that gun an angry assailant is beating you to a pulp.
1:10 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
bio-chem said:
In no way am I being disrespectful. I'm truly trying to discuss in order to gain a better understanding. I fully recognize your experience and wisdom over mine on all such subject matter. And ultimately it will always be to your opinion I defer and seek out.
While it didn't appear that he had any open hands training, I'm not in a position to say he doesn't either. Police officers do go through training in how to subdue individuals and many things need to go into consideration. Giving up 100 lbs is quite the disadvantage, even for an individual trained. If the boxer falls into a sprawl while the officer goes for a take down the officers gun, now becomes exposed to the boxer and the officer has little ability to defend his gun. if it is after the gun has jammed and dropped then I would be worried about somehow the boxer ending up on top, or even landing strikes from the bottom. scrambling and keeping distance seem to be the only safe recourse of action in the situation presented as I saw it. I guess my ultimate question is at what point does technique overcome size and strength? considering into the equation that the individual opposite you has some technique as well. In this case pro level boxing.
No disrespect taken in the least. We're all here to learn and we're all equally qualified to offer "opinions" on how to best approach these types of situations. I don't think there are "experts" on this subject. There are just too many variables and too many skill sets to master, be they firearms training, empty hands, negotiating skills and tactics, you name it, they're all important and each can take a lifetime to master.
There are always going to be limiting factors, he's faster, stronger, on crack, impervious to pain, 100 lbs bigger, etc. etc. etc. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, you must find a way to succeed. Adapt and overcome. Failure is not an option.
The way I see it is, some training is better than no training, the more training the better. I don't know if the officer had empty hands training or not, but I do think that more time dedicated to his empty handed self defense could have benefitted him. Better footwork, more ground work, it all would have been helpful.
Can size be overcome with technique?
Difficult as it may be, I say yes it can.
2:08 pm
November 20, 2010
Offline
In the end I do believe technique can help a lot, its just the level of skill needed in that situation to overcome that I question? Not many royce gracie level cops out there. I guess in my mind when a guy walks through a can of mace and a bullet in the gut stage T.A.R.F.U. has been hit. In your opinion how much submission wrestling training would be needed to overcome in that situation.
2:23 pm
Instructor
June 9, 2009
Offline
bio-chem said:
In the end I do believe technique can help a lot, its just the level of skill needed in that situation to overcome that I question? Not many royce gracie level cops out there. I guess in my mind when a guy walks through a can of mace and a bullet in the gut stage T.A.R.F.U. has been hit. In your opinion how much submission wrestling training would be needed to overcome in that situation.
Not trying to sound like a smart @$$, but really, the answer is, as much as is needed. In this case, there was enough. The officer survived. Had he not survived and been beaten to death, then I'd say the answer would be, he didn't know enough. It's kind of like your posts about Koshcheck. How much boxing do you need to know in order to overcome the striking game of a fighter at the level of GSP. The answer is, more than what was demonstrated by Koshcheck. Whether that level of skill can be aquired in a day, a lesson, a year, a lifetime, is really dependent on the student and the teacher. You have enough skill, when you are no longer plagued by a jab.
Back to the officer's situation, if you know that your line of work or living situation etc, put you at a higher risk of facing physical altercations, what excuse to you have not to train yourself to at the highest level of profiency possible? This crosses over even into our world of "recreational" martial arts.
You've got fighters out there that dabble in the arts and then schedule a fight. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. You (not you personally bio-chem, but "you" in the universal sense) may suffer permanent injury, but you're going to risk it so you can say you've fought in the cage? I still can't wrap my mind that kind of mentality. I'm not saying I'm right. People are free to do whatever they want. But I guess, for me, if I'm going to go into something, I want to be as prepared as I possibly can be. Others might not see it as being worth their time but if my life and welfare are on the line, it's worth it to me, to invest myself, whole heartedly into the pursuit of excellence in all aspects of a given field of study.
Again, I'm not right, I'm just expressing my opinions and my take on the situation. How much skill do you think someone would need to overcome a 100 lb weight disparity (which I think was inacurrate) to a former pro boxer? Can we really quantify this type of question?
Great discussion by the way! :)
All RSSMost Users Ever Online: 69
Currently Online:
9 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
naturalbornfighter1: 673
wylothar: 260
Dickey: 207
bio-chem: 173
TCMAG: 118
rob davis: 110
anointed fighter: 96
brian d: 95
Fear is the MindKiller: 94
zaxonortesus: 88
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 0
Members: 3031
Moderators: 1
Admins: 2
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 4
Topics: 604
Posts: 4070
Newest Members: johannes tangen, joffrebolda, stephen bullough, Ragib Karamehemdovic, kabuto68, iadapt
Moderators: Dr Sick (1164)
Administrators: admin (14), simplepress (0)
